Varian Wrynn tiene razón

Ir abajo

Varian Wrynn tiene razón

Mensaje  Shin'Darel el Miér 15 Jul 2009, 15:24

Encontrado en, os dejo el texto para los vagos (lo siento, sin traducir):
Parte I
Parte II

Aviso genérico de Spiler, etc.:

Among WoW players these days, it seems to be a popular opinion that King Varian Wrynn is a narrow minded short-sighted bigot who will lead the Alliance to ruin. This is an easy opinion to have, since he does show a considerable amount of anger at times when dealing with the Horde, and it's long been the general opinion that "no-one is truly evil" in the Horde and Alliance conflict. This is even the opinion of some of my fellow writers.

Here's my problem with this: The underlying causes of Varian Wrynn's anger are all unconditionally justified. Varian Wrynn is not angry at the Horde because of a series of misunderstandings and misinterpretations. He's been witness to or victim of multiple wrongdoings and atrocities perpetuated by the Horde time and time again, both the new Horde and the Old. Most, if not all of these times, the wrongdoings have been the result of outright maliciousness on the part of the Horde or its members, and in the case the so-called "peaceful" New Horde, there's been no sign whatsoever that Thrall is punishing or disciplining the perpetrators of these acts, and at the least, it is clear that he is not properly dealing with the consequences.
Regarding the First Fall of Stormwind

The first fall of Stormwind occurred when Varian Wrynn was a young man. So this was Varian's first encounter with the Orcs. Now mind you, this Orcish Horde had no justification for the war. They were not being driven from land, they were not starving or lost, nor were they addressing some ancient affront by the Human race. No, these Orcs were foreign invaders from another dimension

Consider, also, how they eventually razed Stormwind. They were able to do so by way of Garona, a Half-Orc assassin acting on behalf of the Horde. So Varian not only saw that the Orcish Army was a mindlessly violent army bent on the destruction of the human race, but that the one Orc who might have been different, the one Orc who appeared to have befriended humanity and proven that not how all Orcs were mindless beasts, betrayed them and proved herself an enemy to humanity by murdering Varian's beloved Father.

Horde apologists will tell you that Garona was acting under mind control. There's two problems with this. First, Varian has no real way of knowing Garona was mind-controlled at the time. All he knows is that an Orc gained the trust and friendship of his father, then used it to betray and murder him, causing the downfall of his kingdom and very nearly the downfall of all humanity. Secondly, Garona was still under the control of the Shadow Council, which was at the time solely an Orcish organization and the de facto leadership of the Horde. Either way, it was the Horde who killed his father and nearly wiped out his people.

On Varian's loss of his second father and Humanity's loss of their greatest Hero

Now, consider the aftermath of this incident. It was Anduin Lothar who saved what remained of Stormwind's people after the razing. He spirited Varian away to Lordaeron along with the rest of the survivors. Once in Stormwind, he replaced Llane as Varian's father figure and mentor, and worked with King Tereneas to establish the Alliance, the force that became the only hope of humans, dwarves, and elves against the Orcish Horde.

And yet, Anduin Lothar was killed in cold blood by the Orcs during their attempt to finish what they had started at Stormwind, killed by Orgrim Doomhammer himself.

Horde Apologists will argue that Orgrim Doomhammer was not under the influence of the Burning Legion, and that he was doing it in self-defense, but again, there's problems with those who insist on this. First, while Orgrim was a friend of Durotan and supposedly had heeded his warning that Blackhand and Gul'dan did not have the Horde's best interests in mind, he still allowed Gul'dan to live, employed his necromancers and the Death Knights in battle, and continued the Horde's genocidal campaign against the the Humans. This all strongly implies that Orgrim was more interested in his own personal power, or at least the dominance of the Orcs, rather than doing what was right.

Regardless, whether Orgrim was under the control of the Burning Legion or not, he was still acting as an enemy of the Alliance. In addition, while the forces of the Alliance did have the Horde pinned down at Blackrock Spire, there was no attempt by Doomhammer to parlay. Instead, he went out to kill.

A Note should be made here that in the original events of Warcraft II, Lothar came to Blackrock under a flag of truce to offer terms of surrender to Orgrim, but was ambushed and killed in Cold Blood by Orgrim's order. A retcon changed this to put Lothar and Orgrim in single combat, but the basic crimes of Orgrim remain, and later depictions of the battle (for example, in the d20 Warcraft games player's guides) have left the circumstances of the single combat murky enough that an ambush or deliberate drawing out of Lothar on the part of Orgrim may have still happened.

Regardless of the exact cause of Lothar's death, the point remains that Orgrim, no matter what his ultimate loyalties, continued the genocidal campaign of the Horde upon the Humans, Dwarves, and High Elves, and killed Anduin Lothar in the process. The Horde killed Humanity's greatest hero and Varian's mentor and second father during an unjust war of genocide against Varian's people, the people he was sworn to protect as King. Thus, the injustices perpetrated against Varian by the Horde continue to stack to unbelievable, unwieldy heights.

On the formation of the New Horde and their attitude toward the Alliance

Horde apologists will argue that all of these problems are the Old Horde, and that the New Horde should be treated as a new, separate entity. Once again, there are very definite problems with this view. Not only are most of the Orcs that make up the current Horde the same Orcs who were the rank and file and leaders of the Old Horde, the fact remains that the New Horde is still using many of the trappings and philosophies of the Old Horde, and is more and more committing new violent acts of their own.

To start with, on the most basic of levels, Thrall continues to use symbology and symbols for the Horde that are, in Human experience, most clearly and basically connected with the Old Horde that was attempting to wipe out the free peoples of Azeroth.

The very title "Warchief" is said to be an ancient title of the Orcs. However, current lore suggests that the title had fallen out of use, and was only taken up again by Rend Blackhand as a tool by Gul'dan to unite the clans as an army of darkness and death. Orgrim Doomhammer took over the title, but continued to use it as the head of a genocidal army. Thrall now claims the title, but the fact remains that, ancestral ties or not, it has been most recently used as a tool of the Burning Legion, only very vaguely tied in to the heritage of an old line of Warchiefs that may or may not have existed, a history that Thrall, as of yet, shows few signs of trying to uncover. When Thrall uses the title Warchief, it is most clearly being used to evoke the power and authority of Orgrim Doomhammer.

Yes, Thrall and the Horde still revere Orgrim Doomhammer, the bloody Warchief who killed Anduin Lothar, the savior of humanity. He is considered a Hero, so much that Thrall wears his armor and carries his hammer - the same Hammer that killed Lothar, or one very similar to it. Thrall calls for peace while wearing the armor and weapon of an Orc who very nearly destroyed Humanity, ostensibly to honor him. In addition, he calls his capital, the symbol of the power and might of the new Horde, Orgrimmar. It's not very hard to see why a human, dwarf, or High Elf might find this symbology a bit insulting, and wonder why the "New" Horde is so eager to honor the Orc who committed some of the worst atrocities of the "Old" Horde. It's even worse for Varian, considering how close he was to Lothar, who was murdered by Orgrim.

Orgrim certainly isn't the only one to be honored like this either. Many of the main generals and architects of the Human, Dwarven, and High Elven genocide are now revered and honored by the Horde, with little to no attempts made to acknowledge their faults and the very real war crimes they committed against the Alliance. Grom Hellscream was one of the first to drink the Demon's blood offered by Gul'dan and commited many atrocities against the Draenei, against humans in the second war, and against Night Elves later.. Kargath Bladefist likewise has had multiple landmarks and fortresses named in his honor, and when he was killed in Outland after revealing himself to be a continued servant of demonic powers, Nazgrel (Another war criminal of the "Old" Horde) spoke of him with respect and honor.

If you are trying to break away from the example of the Old Horde, embracing so much of it seems like a very counter-intuitive way of doing it, and Varian, having at least seen the way Orgrim himself is honored, has a right to at least be made uncomfortable by this.

[Edit Typo]

Última edición por Shin'Darel el Vie 17 Jul 2009, 15:39, editado 2 veces

¿Buscas la luz en un Templo?
Corre bajo las estrellas, siente el viento en la cara, bebe agua pura y mira en tu interor.
Ahí encontrarás la gracia de Elune.

Lore Adict

Cantidad de envíos : 1251
Edad : 108
Localización : Enterrado en la corriente del tiempo...
Fecha de inscripción : 16/02/2008

Volver arriba Ir abajo

Re: Varian Wrynn tiene razón

Mensaje  Shin'Darel el Miér 15 Jul 2009, 15:26

On Varian's temper and restraint

Varian is often said to be "emo," or to have a lack of restraint or a violent temper. First of all, given all of the events outlined in the previous parts of this article, it's hard to call him unjustified. Secondly, he has in actuality, shown a great amount of restraint, civility, and wisdom in his dealings with the Horde until recently.

Varian has actually tried, in good faith, to participate in Peace talks with the Horde. When he was first captured and enslaved by Rethgar Earthfury, one of Thrall's most trusted advisers, he was on his way to a peace conference. When he regained his throne, he agreed to attend that same peace conference (This is depicted in the Warcraft comic series).

Thrall walked into that Peace conference wielding the symbols of Office of Orgrim Doomhammer, the man who killed Anduin Lothar, and Varian abode. Thrall walked into that Peace conference alongside Rethgar Earthfury, an Orc who participated in a massive slave ring that enslaved Alliance citizens and forced them to fight to the Death, an Orc who had enslaved Varian himself in this manner, and Varian abode. Despite the injustices heaped on him, Varian was willing to talk peace after all.

What broke the camel's back was a scenario that was tailor made to evoke his first encounter with the Horde. Garona, the same assassin who killed his father under the auspices of the Horde, came to finish the job. Given the setup, it was hardly a massive leap of logic for Varian to assume the Horde was behind it again. He may have been wrong in this case, but the circumstantial evidence for it was not insignificant. If the Horde used Garona to kill his father, it's not much of a leap to think the same Horde might be looking to kill him as well.

Again during the Ulduar Cinematic, while Varian did not appreciate Thrall's presence, he did not immediately teleport away. It was Garrosh who escalated, insulting Varian and his people to his face. Even then, when Varian challenged him, he did not take the first strike. That was Garrosh. Varian, despite all the injustices heaped upon him and his people, did not completely rule out dealing with the Horde until Garrosh attacked him viciously while Thrall stood by impotently.

Far from having an uncontrollable temper, Varian Wrynn has acted with relative restraint and calm. He has simply finally been pushed too far by a Horde that has rebuffed his every attempt to understand them.

On the "Yes, But..." Arguments

There are many Horde Apologists who will, upon hearing some of the above arguments, admit that the Horde may not be the best of neighbors to the Alliance at times. However, many of them then follow this admittance up with a "But."

There are two major "Buts." The first is that Thrall is working for peace even if the Horde is sometimes rowdy. The second is that the Horde and the Alliance must unite to face larger enemies, or everyone will die, and any Horde or Alliance wars should be put off until then.

Again, events suggest that neither excuse really stands up. Thrall has talked, but has taken very little legitimate action to stop the onslaught of the Horde. He has not attempted to withdraw the Warsong Clan from Ashenvale, nor did he monitor his allies, not balking at the torture and imprisonment of Mu'ru (whether that was destined or not, it was still morally reprehensible for the Blood Elves to have done it) or the actions of the Forsaken in Northern Lordaeron and Ashenvale, where they killed and enslaved the spirits of innocent sleeping Druids.

He has also apparently not done anything significant to stop the spread of Slavery in the Horde, and the organization that enslaved Varian has a base in Orgrimmar where they even keep stolen Alliance artifacts such as the belt of Lothar. In fact, one of the greatest patrons of the organization, Rethgar Earthfury, is now one of Thrall's most trusted advisers. Contrast this to the Alliance's now-defunct gladiator system as depicted in Arthas: Blackmoore was kept under careful watch and was not trusted by Tereneas or Arthas, and Thrall was revealed to be the only slave gladiator, the others all voluntarily fighting for fame and glory, and only rarely to the death if at all.

Thrall is ostensibly trying to teach his people to have pride in themselves and their heritage, but the heritage he is offering is still stained in the trappings of the old genocidal Horde, such as their honoring of bloodlust and war criminals such as Grom and Orgrim (Whom Thrall even evokes at the end of the Battle of the Undercity. When Thrall asks how Grom and Orgrim would react at these events, all I can think is that they'd join Garrosh in calling for all out battle on the Alliance, if their past actions are any indication).

When his people take these ideals too far, which is very easy to do and happens very often, Thrall is silent. For example, He has done nothing to reign in Garrosh aside from one aborted duel that Garrosh was close to winning. Garrosh has sabotaged peace with the Alliance at every possible opportunity, even before the events of the Wrathgate, and afterwards, has continued to prod and provoke. Saurfang is forced to counter what he can of Garrosh's recklessness in secret. In short, Thrall is silent on the crimes of his people. The Alliance and Varian have every right to see him as a Hypocrite.

"Yes, But" and Putting Aside Differences

The other "Yes, But" argument is that the Horde and the Alliance should put aside their differences to fight the larger challenges. The problem with that is that asking the Alliance to ally with the Horde is, at the moment, essentially identical to asking them to ally with the Twilight's Hammer, the Scarlet Crusade, or the Blackrock Orcs. The Horde has dedicated themselves to fighting and wiping out the Alliance in nearly every corner of Azeroth once again. Even when the Alliance tries to focus their attacks on the "real" threats, the Horde stabs them in the back, such as at the Broken Front, where the Horde Warriors proudly boast of ambushing and killing the Alliance as they fought the Scourge.

In Northern Lordaeron, in Northrend, and in Ashenvale, the RAS is clearly dedicated to destroying the Alliance, killing them by poisoning. Their stated intent is the wiping out of all life. The Warsong clan is dedicated to "taming" Ashenvale, and will kill as many Night Elves as they need to to do it. These are no longer minor skirmishes or disagreements, if they ever were. The Alliance body count in skirmishes with the Horde rises by the day, and most of these skirmishes are Horde-instigated, and happened before the Wrathgate.

To say the Alliance should simply let bygones be bygones does not work, especially after the Broken Front. The Horde have proven that they will strike at any time, and will do their best to destroy the Alliance. The Scourge or the Burning Legion or Malygos may destroy Azeroth, but the Horde will destroy the Alliance. Either way the end result for the members of the Alliance is the same - they have died painfully and gone extinct as a race. There is very little incentive for the Alliance to declare peace anymore, and I have yet to hear Rhonin, Jaina, or anyone else in favor of "peace" give a solid enough answer that Varian should be expected to listen to.

On the Future

In short, painting Varian as an "emo" or an irrational grudge holder is a very simplistic view that ignores the repeated and unwarranted aggression the Horde, both the "Old" and "New" versions, have shown to the Alliance. At this point, it is obvious to me that Varian is not declaring a new war against the Horde as much as he is finally committing the Alliance to the one that is already there, fighting back against the Horde in a way no other Alliance leader has so far.

I do not believe that Blizzard's Lore team is ignorant of the things I have outlined above, nor do I believe Varian is headed to a career as an unforgivable Villain, at least not because of the current Horde-Alliance conflict. This one is actually pretty well justified.

But here is what I believe needs to happen:

Thrall either needs to find his backbone, or step aside. Garrosh will continue to flex his power, and he will continue to attract followers who believe in the Bloody, Proud, arrogant Horde that Thrall has inadvertently fostered through misplaced hero worship of the War criminals and symbols of the Old Horde. Saurfang, who speaks out against arrogance and has repeatedly expressed his regret for the crimes his people committed in the first and second wars, but still carries an air of nobility and fierceness, should be the true new model for the Horde.

In fact, Saurfang should be the leader of the New Horde if Thrall doesn't clean up his act, and fast. If Thrall does clean up his act and depose Garrosh, insist Sylvanas disband the RAS and stop any biological warfare programs, and pull out of Ashenvale, he should still use Saurfang's attitude as the new target for the Orcish outlook on life.

Varian himself will continue to lead the Alliance successfully, and will gain some solid victories against the Horde. He will perhaps see some examples of noble Horde who properly understand the tragic history of the Orcs, and learn to respect them. Perhaps the Orc will be Saurfang himself.

At this point, Thrall should hopefully be ready to repent. If Thrall genuinely comes in peace and offers legitimate concessions to the Alliance, I believe Varian will be able to talk peace legitimately. But at this point, the Horde has committed far too many crimes for them to demand anything approaching equal terms or status quo antebellum. If nothing else, it will teach the Horde a valuable lesson in humility.

Of course, Blizzard's Lore Team generally manages to surprise, sometimes pleasantly, sometimes not so pleasantly. But at this point, I do think the Horde and Alliance conflict is playing out this way for a reason, and in the end, I believe Varian will be a legitimate hero of the Alliance, and a legitimate "Good Guy." His reputation in the current conflict among much of the player base is far from deserved, and I encourage everyone to think about it and understand that he has a very solid outlay of reasons to be fed up with the Horde, and he's given them more than a fair shake all told.

Varian Wrynn is right, and unless Thrall grows a backbone soon, the Horde is headed right back into their old ways.

¿Buscas la luz en un Templo?
Corre bajo las estrellas, siente el viento en la cara, bebe agua pura y mira en tu interor.
Ahí encontrarás la gracia de Elune.

Lore Adict

Cantidad de envíos : 1251
Edad : 108
Localización : Enterrado en la corriente del tiempo...
Fecha de inscripción : 16/02/2008

Volver arriba Ir abajo

Re: Varian Wrynn tiene razón

Mensaje  Shin'Darel el Vie 17 Jul 2009, 15:37

Un pequeño añadido para los que exponen que Varian es un broncas...
Creo que es de los comics, y éstos crean canon.

Stormwind Harbor

Bolvar: The Valiance Expedition sails for Northrend on the evening tide, sire.

Varian: There is no one I'd trust more to create the base at Angrathar, my friend.

Bolvar: In the shadow of Icecrown! That will tweak the Lich King's nose, Varian........ and pay him back for daring to send a necropolis against Stormwind!

Anduin: I'm going to miss you Bolvar! Be careful!

Bolvar: I'll do my best!

Varian: You are more brother to me than even blood!

Varian: Keep safe! Stormwind needs you!

Bolvar gets on the boat

Anduin: I wish Bolvar didn't have to go. I wish there were no enemies or battles... but you aren't like that, are you, father?

Anduin: You're sorry not to be going with Bolvar. You love to fight.

Anduin: Father... do you think there's something wrong with me that I do not?

Varian: You're a valiant lad, Anduin. And when you have to fight, you acquit yourself bravely with honor. That is enough.

Varian: I do not thirst for war as some men do. But... it's true that I feel most alive in the midst of battle.

Varian: Maybe that means there's something wrong with me... though that's just as well, considering our present circumstances. A great and terrible war is coming.

Varian: When we win and the Lich King has been defeated... then let us hope your time, a time of peace and healing, will begin.

Varian: When that day comes, you will be greater than I.

¿Buscas la luz en un Templo?
Corre bajo las estrellas, siente el viento en la cara, bebe agua pura y mira en tu interor.
Ahí encontrarás la gracia de Elune.

Lore Adict

Cantidad de envíos : 1251
Edad : 108
Localización : Enterrado en la corriente del tiempo...
Fecha de inscripción : 16/02/2008

Volver arriba Ir abajo

Re: Varian Wrynn tiene razón

Mensaje  Natharell el Lun 20 Jul 2009, 18:37

Por supuesto desconozco qué pretende Blizzard con Varian, si quieren hacerle un héroe o el próximo villano. Si es esto último no me gustará, porque reconozco que el tipo, de momento, me cae bien. No es perfecto (personalmente no quiero que lo sea), pero no puedo evitar que me caiga bien. Y no precisamente por lo que siente por los orcos, más bien porque, por lo menos, mueve el trasero.

El artículo está escrito desde el punto de vista Alianza, y eso se nota. Pero yo coincido en mi punto de vista con muchas de estas cosas, así que no me quejaré... XDDDDD

"Que los dragones vuelen siempre en vuestros sueños."
Margarett Weis & Tracy Hickman


Cantidad de envíos : 546
Localización : Observando
Fecha de inscripción : 17/02/2008

Volver arriba Ir abajo

Re: Varian Wrynn tiene razón

Mensaje  Shin'Darel el Miér 04 Nov 2009, 15:38

Añadido desde las Audio Files del 3.3:
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA01 - Stand down, Muradin. Let a grieving father pass.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA02 - I... I was not at the wrath gate. But the soldiers who survived told me much of what happened. Your son fought with honor. He died a heroes death, he deserves a heroes burial.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA03 - Jaina... Why are you crying?
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA04 - Muradin, secure the deck, and prepare our soldiers for an assault on the upper citadel. I'll send out another regiment from Stormwind.

Si es lo que parece...
I... I was not at the wrath gate. But the soldiers who survived told me much of what happened. Your son fought with honor. He died a heroes death, he deserves a heroes burial

Si, ya veo, un odio brutal exacerbado a los orcos... no va a dejar ni acercarse a Saurfang a su hijo y lo va a atacar a la primera...
Como íbamos diciendo, Varyan es un xenofobo, que nunca piensa y que sólo es capaz de decir "waaaaaaaaaagh matar pielesverdes"

QED: por favor, retiren sus bias, gracias.

P.D.: ¡Garrosh, basta!
Thrall for president ^^

Secuencia de audio completa: